Declined Banned for being guilty by association.

[Alibi]

You know, I really grow tired of this.

I have a Permanent ban from a server I have never visited before, for the reason
"Steam Community Group Ban (WhenYouWantToWin):"

I've never in my life expected so much hassle from a stupid group invite. All they did was meme in the group and every single one of the "hackers" (If you can call them that) have numerous other accounts. All Group banning does is ban actual players that get caught in with it.

I've already had to go through the appeal process with SMT, that took a week.

https://smt-gaming.net/threads/server-ban-appeal-dingdongjr.9663/

Please can you make this as painless as possible, the very fact I even have to do this does my head in.

 

[R4]

I also grow really tired of smart appeals from people that instead of apologising for being in multiple cheating groups and associating with/encouraging hackers demand they be unbanned and that banning a group is wrong.

You were in multiple groups not one, all of which contain plenty of nullcore hackers who used and still use their mains for the hack because its undetected. (Yes there was a VAC wave but that's a one time).
You can easily see from the blocklist and the recent appeals from multiple hackers having being group banned it's not ineffective as you claim either. It solves part of the issue and reduces our workload.

So I would rethink your appeal if you wish to be unbanned.

 

[Alibi]

Well, aren't you a ton of fun. I was hoping you could see that this was just a misunderstanding but I fail to see what I need to apologise for. What have I done wrong merely for "associating" with said people? And by associating, you mean being in a meme-worthy steam groups that I have had zero interactions with since joining. Have you seen my steam groups? I'm also in "Anarcho-fascist liberal transhumanist buddhist girl gamer" because I found that funny. Does that mean I support them? Obviously not.

Do you actually think I am "encouraging hackers" with my mere presence. Do you think I enjoy the game I have spent 4000 hours in being ruined so easily? No, I hate these idiots as much as the next guy, but there is absolutely NOTHING I can personally do that will change anything. It is down to Valve to get their act together on this. If they can't care enough to put the resources in to stop Nullcore and catbots, then why should I be punished for not caring about something I have no control over?

 

[R4]

You've provided me nothing to show this is a misunderstanding except a misplaced indignation at getting banned for being part of multiple cheating groups.
Fact is you were part of multiple groups that were made up almost exclusively cheaters, the fact you are part of these groups especially so many of them and the rarer ones make it's extremely likely that you are a hacker either on your main or more likely alts. Therefore it's a prudent measure to ban such individuals, for the safety of our servers and in the interest of saving limited staff time.

Membership of hacking groups and egging them on does in fact contribute to increased hacking, this can be easily be demonstrated by NSS and similar groups. The moment you ban one of them, a dozen other "Non Hacker ones" come and complain or cause trouble.
You hate them so much you participated in multiple groups relating to them ?
Also hating and not caring are mutually exclusive as well.

All I'm looking for here is for you to convince me despite the evidence pointing otherwise you are not a hacker, trying to antagonise things and using the exact same lines and indignation as the hackers do to try to get themselves pardoned isn't helping.

 

[Alibi]

"Fact is you were part of multiple groups that were made up almost exclusively cheaters, the fact you are part of these groups especially so many of them and the rarer ones make it's extremely likely that you are a hacker either on your main or more likely alts. Therefore it's a prudent measure to ban such individuals, for the safety of our servers and in the interest of saving limited staff time."

If I was a hacker and I had alt accounts, why would I go through the hassle of appealing a ban? Why "Waste" time arguing with you when, if I was a hacker, I could simply just hop on an alt and continue. I've linked my steam account here, you can see my profile and everything. I have nothing to hide because I am innocent, which is why I taking my time, as well as yours, to appeal. Secondly, Hacking on a "Main" with 4000 hours, several UGC medals and a scorching Charmers, are you serious?

"You hate them so much you participated in multiple groups relating to them?"

Once again assuming I "Participate" with them. What is your definition of "Participation"? I've never posted a single post in either of them once. Furthermore, I left those groups during the SMT appeal.

"Also hating and not caring are mutually exclusive as well."

That is implying they are the same thing. I hate the hacks, but I have no control over their existence. I only have the choice to use them or not when offered to me. I choose not to.

"All I'm looking for here is for you to convince me despite the evidence"

Convince you of what? Despite what evidence? As it stands right now you are accusing me of being a hacker with no actual evidence to prove it. How can I prove myself innocent of something I have not done? You have no logs, no video evidence, no server records.The burden of proof lies with you, for you are the one who is accusing me.

If you are going to continue to accuse me, what do I need to do to prove my innocence?

 

[R4]

If I was a hacker and I had alt accounts, why would I go through the hassle of appealing a ban? Why "Waste" time arguing with you when, if I was a hacker, I could simply just hop on an alt and continue. I've linked my steam account here, you can see my profile and everything. I have nothing to hide because I am innocent, which is why I taking my time, as well as yours, to appeal. Secondly, Hacking on a "Main" with 4000 hours, several UGC medals and a scorching Charmers, are you serious?

Multiple hackers have appealed on their mains after realizing we got their mains banned as well, just look back in the appeals three days. There's two similar cases of hackers having their mains banned and being denied. People like to play on their mains so they can use their cosmetics etc, that's why they tend to appeal if they want to play on our servers with them after being banned for hacking or being in hacking groups. You appealing doesn't show anything but the fact you want to play here.
I have personally banned and seen users with more hours and more medals being banned, so while it adds to your authenticity somewhat it's not really a huge factor in determining your innocence. Though it's definitely the sort of things you should be saying not trying to make it out that it's a bad thing we banned people in hacker groups.

Once again assuming I "Participate" with them. What is your definition of "Participation"? I've never posted a single post in either of them once. Furthermore, I left those groups during the SMT appeal.

Well, it's a reasonable assumption given the fact you were part of multiple groups especially the smaller ones that are usually setup for specific rage lobbies that you participated in them. Perhaps you didn't but it's certainly weird that you would be in groups relating to specific rage lobbies without actually participating them. Perhaps telling us who invited you to these groups and when might help?

Convince you of what? As it stands right now you are accusing me of being a hacker with no actual evidence to prove it. How can I prove myself innocent of something I have not done? You have no logs, no video evidence, no server records.The burden of proof lies with you, for you are the one who is accusing me.

If you are going to continue to accuse me, what do I need to do to prove my innocence?

Convince me that it was just a silly mistake that you joined multiple hack groups.
I've not accused you of anything, only stated that being part of multiple groups makes it a high likelihood you hack yourself and I would like to be convinced this is not the case.
So no the burden of proof is not on me, I've not accused you of anything. Show you are the exception to the rule.
I do have all the evidence I need to show that you were part of these groups which is a bannable offence on our server network.

Once again I've not accused you of anything.


You know if you had just come in and said sorry I was part of these hacking groups, I've left them and won't join any again. I'm not a hacker though so can you please unban me, I'd have done a quick investigation and been satisfied.
Playing the victim card doesn't help you here.

 

[Alibi]

"You appealing doesn't show anything but the fact you want to play here."

I am appealing this because I have been banned unjustly. I have no commitment to Wonderland other than it being a potential community. As you already know, I have not been on any of your servers yet and the only reason I know about this ban is that I stumbled on it. Would be nice to see what wonderland has to offer, but having to prove my innocence isn't a good start.

"I've not accused you of anything, only stated that being part of multiple groups makes it a high likelihood you hack yourself and I would like to be convinced this is not the case."

How can I do this other than saying "I don't hack" as well as the amount of effort that I am putting into this appeal.

"You know if you had just come in and said sorry I was part of these hacking groups, I've left them and won't join any again. I'm not a hacker though so can you please unban me, I'd have done a quick investigation and been satisfied.
Playing the victim card doesn't help you here."

So now any accused hacker can come in here, they that they were "Very very sorry" and you would give them a free pass? I very much doubt that, not to mention be very exploitable and goes against what you've been saying.

 

[R4]

I am appealing this because I have been banned unjustly. I have no commitment to Wonderland other than it being a potential community. As you already know, I have not been on any of your servers yet and the only reason I know about this ban is that I stumbled on it. Would be nice to see what wonderland has to offer, but having to prove my innocence isn't a good start.
There is nothing unjust about banning people who are in multiple hack groups, it's a prudent measure to prevent players who are extremely likely to hack from entering the server and wasting our time.
It's great that you look at this as a potential community, however, telling us we unjustly banned you, when we have not isn't going to make us unban you.


"I've not accused you of anything, only stated that being part of multiple groups makes it a high likelihood you hack yourself and I would like to be convinced this is not the case."
What I was looking for, was a simple statement saying you were sorry, you are no longer part of the group and you never interacted with them, not an indignant tirade about being unfairly banned because you weren't. Our rules are quite clear regarding those groups.

So now any accused hacker can come in here, they that they were "Very very sorry" and you would give them a free pass? I very much doubt that, not to mention be very exploitable and goes against what you've been saying.
Of course not, we investigate every case, look for hacking group associations, through cheater discords, bans on other communities and in your case probably your EFTL Demo's as well.
I'm perfectly willing to do that too but if you keep on appealing on the basis this is an unfair ban when that's not the case, then this appeal is going to be denied.

 

[Alibi]

"I'm perfectly willing to do that too but if you keep on appealing on the basis this is an unfair ban when that's not the case, then this appeal is going to be denied."

I am banned not on the basis of my own merit but on the basis of a group that I have no affiliation with, on the assumption that I have done something wrong with no actual evidence that I have, surely you must see why I am arguing from the position I am.

 

[R4]

I am banned not on the basis of my own merit but on the basis of a group that I have no affiliation with, on the assumption that I have done something wrong with no actual evidence that I have, surely you must see why I am arguing from the position I am.

Not a group, multiple groups. All of which contain almost exclusively hackers.
There is no assumption of wrong doing, you were part of these groups and that alone is an offense on our servers.
So I hope you can see why your indignation is unfounded and why I'm not going to work with someone who won't work with us.

 

[Alibi]

If I didn't want to work with you, I wouldn't be appealing, let alone continuing to comment.

As it stands currently, I cannot see anything in the rules that states that being joined with these groups is an offence. I am sure you will use the "Staff reserve the right to add or amend rules at any time to close loopholes" but up until this point, there has been no previous ruling on the subject that I know of. On top of that, I am no longer joined to any of these said groups, and have had no interaction with them anyway.

I would recommend adding a rule in regards to this. Though I will say It's a rather harsh rule if you are going to ban people on what steam groups they are in, rather on their actual behaviour. In regards to it saving you time, has banning me saved you anytime in this incident?

 

[R4]

I you look through the previous ban appeals there's quite a lot of cases where we have cited this ruling and it's actually listed in our ban guidelines which aren't public.
It isn't in the general rules but it didn't really seem appropriate to put a small ruling that doesn't come into play too often there that's why its not added.

Its not harsh to ban people who are part of groups dedicated to hacking, almost all these users from our experience and other communities are hacking, even when they are not joining these groups indirectly supports hacking so making then appeal to join is not an unfair barrier in our view.
Doing so saves us hours upon hours when these idiots get blocked upon entering the server network instead of forcing an admin to come on when they are reported.

Has it saved any time in this case?
Well since you've refused to actually work with us, just argued and refused to accept you violated the conduct expected leading to a rightful and just ban. I've not looked any further into your case to determine whether you hack or not so I can't honestly tell you if time has been saved.

 

[Alibi]

You have ban guidelines which aren't public? How is that fair to those who do not know rules which are not displayed?

I don't see what I am not doing to work with you. You want me to apologise for a "Crime" that isn't listed publically, isn't well known enough to be considered an actual rule and is implemented on the bases that I am guilty until proven innocent.

Speaking of terms of conduct, how can I violate a terms of conduct if at the time of said "Crime" I had not yet accepted them? By that, I mean it is only when I signed up to this website that I have had to follow Wonderland Terms of conduct, since by signing up I am personally agreeing with them. I have had no relationship or communication with Wonderland until this point, as I have not played in any of your servers either, in which I have broken no rules.

In all honesty, I feel that you are refusing to work with me since you could easily look further into my case, and understand the position that I am coming from, but you are not.

Perhaps we can take this to another Admin to review, since it's very clear that despite my evidence you believe this is "a rightful and just ban."

 

[Mycin]

I don't think you want another admin to review, had it been me I would've stopped arguing and closed the thread. You made the conscious decision to join these groups and you should be held responsible for your actions. You've (regardless of indirectly or directly) supported these groups. You are affiliated with these groups. Your ban is justified.

All you needed to do was apologize, leave these groups, and denounce any ties to them you had, however you've pulled this into a pointless discussion. It's been made clear what your choices are.

 

[Alibi]

Fine. I am sorry for being in these stupid groups, I have no affiliation with them, and for the fifth time, I have left these groups during the SMT appeal.

 

[R4]

Ban guidelines specify the default length of bans and the scaling to ensure consistent punishment.

For a start it isn't implemented on the basis you are guilty until proven innocent. You have admitted to being part of these groups.
Secondly it's very well known, look at past bans however putting it in the general rules is pointless since anyone who violates this rule has almost without exception not played on our servers and therefore read its rules.
Therefore in the interest of making them as readable as possible it's something I choose not to add to them.

We reserve the right to refuse entry to our servers to anyone who has or participates currently in these groups.
Anyone who does so is in violation of our rules and is therefore excluded from our services permanently unless we decide otherwise.
Upon entering our servers you implicitly agreed to our rules and therefore you violated our rules regarding past and present association with the groups.


The position you are coming from isn't valid, regardless of whether you hack or not you have violated rules of our community and we have denied you access. This is fair and proportional.

However I tend to agree with mycin, this appeal is being denied, you are wasting our time with your arguing and refusal to accept reality.
When you are ready to accept your mistakes and apologise you can make a new appeal and we will consider the evidence and your conduct here.

 

[R4]

Appeal denied.