If This Gets Removed I Dont Care Im Gonna Make My Point

[Steam Just a Sylveon]

I honestly am tired of the points i make being immediately dismissed by staff and administration of wonderland.tf servers. Instead of considering the points i raise and take them into consideration they'd rather just point to their rulebook. This sort of behavior leads me to believe noone who runs wonderland.tf servers cares about the concerns, complaints, or points users raise and would rather get instant gratification by banning someone for who knows what amount of time.

A lot of players who used to play on wonderland.tf severs in tf2 have left because of the staff and administrations poor performance in resolving issues between players. Also their tolerance of obviously toxic players and likely those people who leave are the people who used to subscribe to the vip status and gave them money in exchange for it. They don't allow normal players who play on their servers any ability to votekick which leads to them leaving. I think stock maps should be given equal justice against spawncamping as the ones where the no spawncamping is allowed that arent stock maps.

Whats going to happen? I guarantee half the people who support the complete apathy of wonderland.tf staff and administration do not care if these servers collapse due to lack of use and them becoming toxic hellholes are the ones who would complain or raise concerns about what i talk about because i know a bunch of people even former folks who paid for vip say that its gotten to much to bear and the admin and moderators are too lax on toxicity. You guys have a rule that toxicity isnt allowed how about you keep your ends of the bargain and keep those coming in there to cause toxicity amongst the people who are trying to enjoy the game out. Personally i think the rules should be tweaked in a way it makes everyone happy and it keeps the toxicity that the mods and admin want out. But they have to be willing to do so.

Im not saying the mods and admin are bad people but seriously something in the server management needs to change or these servers arent going to last much longer and go kaput and all that will be left in them are aimbot users and toxic people instead of actual chill honest players who want to have a good time without ruining everyones day.

Hopefully i raise some good points. If my post gets deleted and censored or thread gets closed. Well i dont care because at least i was trying to stand up for things i thought were right and should be addressed. Im honestly sad that such egregious mismanagement is taking place when they also expect people to stay cool in their servers.

 

[Redds]

So firstly I'm just gonna say close this before any arguements happen and secondly, I don't want to start anything so Take this with a small grain of salt. Most People have left wonderland because of rulebreakers and toxicity, however poor administration is not one of them. People simply get bored of jb or tf2 and move on. Addressing the other points is a biohazard so i wont do that.

 

[Steam Just a Sylveon]

As ive told a mod or admin im talking to in dms

this is what i have experienced from a lot of administrators as well as some people i know as former vip status members in their tf2 servers. They tell me how vips get special treatment and how their issues they raise are at least considerd but when their freinds without that status came to them and they didnt do anything.

Does this mean i think their bad people? no it just means i have experiened a lot of the things from their staff and admin buddies you claim their staff and admin buddies do not do and id appreciate if people wouldn't call me a fucking liar.

 

[Captain Maxxy]

Hello, I am here to answer all your questions. lets start off with your

Instead of considering the points i raise and take them into consideration they'd rather just point to their rulebook.

Of course they are going to point to the rulebook, these are set rules which you have to follow. If you disagree with the rules thats fine, you can bring it up to the admins or owner on discord or on forums. You CAN NOT make a point by breaking a set rule and say it should be changed immediately.

most VIPs who are expecting to stay will most likely get vip+ rather than just monthly VIP, and while there could be some flaws with the system that is certainly not why most people leave.

Staff does not handle toxicity? Where in the world do you get this from, if people report toxicity then staff WILL take action if they are available. The reason a lot of toxicity gets unnoticed is because people might not report it.

VIPs do NOT get special treatment, at all. And if staff does give VIPs treatment, gather proof and provide it to the head admin. There are also set rules for what you can and can not do with your VIP powers making it very balanced in terms of what is allowed, they just have some fun features.

 

[Eight]

I honestly am tired of the points i make being immediately dismissed by staff and administration of wonderland.tf servers. Instead of considering the points i raise and take them into consideration they'd rather just point to their rulebook. This sort of behavior leads me to believe noone who runs wonderland.tf servers cares about the concerns, complaints, or points users raise and would rather get instant gratification by banning someone for who knows what amount of time.

We have actually accepted many suggestions by normal players/regulars. However, these changes are usually done through our Suggestions subforum, deliberation among staff, etc. We don't consider rule changes for people who dislike their punishment for breaking that rule. Even if someone got banned and we subsequently changed the rule they violated, they would still remain punished because they still broke that rule when it was in effect. If you disagree with our rules, that's completely fine, but you still need to respect them. Again, you are free to make suggestions. Staff and non-staff vote on these suggestions and in the end the vote, along with other factors, leads to a verdict.

A lot of players who used to play on wonderland.tf severs in tf2 have left because of the staff and administrations poor performance in resolving issues between players. Also their tolerance of obviously toxic players and likely those people who leave are the people who used to subscribe to the vip status and gave them money in exchange for it. They don't allow normal players who play on their servers any ability to votekick which leads to them leaving. I think stock maps should be given equal justice against spawncamping as the ones where the no spawncamping is allowed that arent stock maps.

I'd honestly fair to say that we are more strict than other communities with behavior that could be considered toxic. (This isn't to take shots at other communities, just an honest observation.) Of course, some players slip through the cracks, and some players are just using annoying game tactics that aren't really "toxic", but otherwise I can't really understand why you think we have a tolerance of obviously toxic players. You can check our SourceBans website (bans.wonderland.tf) to see all the punishments we hand out for toxicity/disrespect.

Yes, players, have left the community, and of course nobody on the staff team wishes for players to leave, but it's only a given for people to not like things (leave WLN and go to other communities they prefer for given reasons). We just can't please everyone, even if we try.

We actually used to have a global voteban system, but it was abused so much that we had to remove it. Votekick/ban commonly results in bandwagoning and mob mentality rather than respecting what is actually in the rules/is the correct action to take. For example, false votebans for players misinterpreted as cheating, when they are just very skilled.

Whats going to happen? I guarantee half the people who support the complete apathy of wonderland.tf staff and administration do not care if these servers collapse due to lack of use and them becoming toxic hellholes are the ones who would complain or raise concerns about what i talk about because i know a bunch of people even former folks who paid for vip say that its gotten to much to bear and the admin and moderators are too lax on toxicity. You guys have a rule that toxicity isnt allowed how about you keep your ends of the bargain and keep those coming in there to cause toxicity amongst the people who are trying to enjoy the game out. Personally i think the rules should be tweaked in a way it makes everyone happy and it keeps the toxicity that the mods and admin want out. But they have to be willing to do so.

I don't have much to say to the first half of this part considering it's just strawmanning us as being apathetic, so I'm just going to respond to the latter half:

You are free to report players who are insulting others, using slurs, etc. A lot of the time, we punish them (not all of the time of course, since we're only humans and only have so much staff). If you can provide specific examples of staff not punishing players who were observed breaking the rules, then you can send a complaint to @Xypher, and I'm sure it will be listened to. Again, if you really want, you can go through our SourceBans website and look at all the punishments we server for violating our rules against disrespectful behavior.

Rest of your post I don't have much to respond to. I think it is just restating how the staff/management is bad, and I have addressed the actual points above.

 

[Steam Just a Sylveon]

So firstly I'm just gonna say close this before any arguements happen and secondly, I don't want to start anything so Take this with a small grain of salt. Most People have left wonderland because of rulebreakers and toxicity, however poor administration is not one of them. People simply get bored of jb or tf2 and move on. Addressing the other points is a biohazard so i wont do that.

So im not alone in this a lot of freinds who used to be paid vip members have left because of poor management in regards to overwhelming toxicity of those who use their servers and the fact they leave these individuals unfettered and unchallenged example well i was in a server where everyone on my team was complaining about a very obvious aimbotter and because we were to busy playing the game to catch footage they let him go free an obvious offender let go to incompetence in management.

 

[Redds]

I'm not really in much of a mood to do anything to really say much but. It's not staff teams fault that you didn't record nor should you expect them to do something if there's no staff on there. Secondly its not impotence in staff team, it's them having a life. Imma just quote this.
First thing, I'm gonna move this to off topic.

Secondly, for the sake of transparency, I do agree that there is a problem with calls handled. I would say an average amount of calls that come in is about 150~ in a 24 hour period, and, give or take, about half get claimed/handled. This obviously isn't where WLN wants to be. I understand the frustration of players getting freekilled round after round, and no staff come on. I use to complain about it myself. I even mentioned it on my first declined application, and was an ass to do so.

However, as a staff member now, I see first hand the issue. I can't speak for all staff, but I am not available every day. I'm able to play 2-3x a week usually for 4-6 hours. I imagine this is close to a staff average as well. That's just the reality of it.

While we would love for more staff to join our team and help, we cannot just accept anyone who applies. We hope more people who show potential apply.

We do not just ignore calls. As convenient of an excuse that would be, it's not the case. Sometimes 20 staff are on for a day, and then the next day sowon is the sole staff on all day.

Encourage everyone to use recording tools and such. I may not be able to hop on cause I'm on break at work; however, you send me a recording of a player mass freekilling, or saying stupid toxic shit, I'll ban a dude.


Closing this as this thread will only create agruements and such. If you have any questions or concerns, you may contact me or other staff members.
Which is what stao said.

 

[Eight]

well i was in a server where everyone on my team was complaining about a very obvious aimbotter and because we were to busy playing the game to catch footage they let him go free an obvious offender let go to incompetence in management.

A lot of the time if someone seems to be aimbotting but is left unpunished, it is because they are actually not aimbotting and they are just a very skilled player. I have known many TF2 players who could easily be mistaken as cheaters (for example, our head-admin, Madi). A majority of the server saying someone is cheating does not equate to them actually cheating, again hence why we don't have global voteban anymore.

Worst case scenario, the guy was cheating but toggled off. It's a shame, but we can't punish, let alone permanently ban, someone based off of word of mouth. We need definitive proof so we don't place false punishments.

 

[Steam Just a Sylveon]

We have actually accepted many suggestions by normal players/regulars. However, these changes are usually done through our Suggestions subforum, deliberation among staff, etc. We don't consider rule changes for people who dislike their punishment for breaking that rule. Even if someone got banned and we subsequently changed the rule they violated, they would still remain punished because they still broke that rule when it was in effect. If you disagree with our rules, that's completely fine, but you still need to respect them. Again, you are free to make suggestions. Staff and non-staff vote on these suggestions and in the end the vote, along with other factors, leads to a verdict.


I'd honestly fair to say that we are more strict than other communities with behavior that could be considered toxic. (This isn't to take shots at other communities, just an honest observation.) Of course, some players slip through the cracks, and some players are just using annoying game tactics that aren't really "toxic", but otherwise I can't really understand why you think we have a tolerance of obviously toxic players. You can check our SourceBans website (bans.wonderland.tf) to see all the punishments we hand out for toxicity/disrespect.

Yes, players, have left the community, and of course nobody on the staff team wishes for players to leave, but it's only a given for people to not like things (leave WLN and go to other communities they prefer for given reasons). We just can't please everyone, even if we try.

We actually used to have a global voteban system, but it was abused so much that we had to remove it. Votekick/ban commonly results in bandwagoning and mob mentality rather than respecting what is actually in the rules/is the correct action to take. For example, false votebans for players misinterpreted as cheating, when they are just very skilled.


I don't have much to say to the first half of this part considering it's just strawmanning us as being apathetic, so I'm just going to respond to the latter half:

You are free to report players who are insulting others, using slurs, etc. A lot of the time, we punish them (not all of the time of course, since we're only humans and only have so much staff). If you can provide specific examples of staff not punishing players who were observed breaking the rules, then you can send a complaint to @Xypher, and I'm sure it will be listened to. Again, if you really want, you can go through our SourceBans website and look at all the punishments we server for violating our rules against disrespectful behavior.

Rest of your post I don't have much to respond to. I think it is just restating how the staff/management is bad, and I have addressed the actual points above.

see reply above and its only strawmanning to you because you dont have to sit there and watch it happen but sure say im strawmanning just because it contradicts what youve been told and or seen doesnt mean this doesnt happen behind your back when youre not looking you adminstrations and moderators are not infallible or incapable of wrong and that is naive of you to assume as such.

 

[Captain Maxxy]

see reply above and its only strawmanning to you because you dont have to sit there and watch it happen but sure say im strawmanning just because it contradicts what youve been told and or seen doesnt mean this doesnt happen behind your back when youre not looking you adminstrations and moderators are not infallible or incapable of wrong and that is naive of you to assume as such.

Noone is saying all staff has no flaws, the thing is that staff WILL do what they can to punish people who break the rules.
everyone has flaws which is why you shouldn't sit here and complain about the entirety of staff just because you got banned. in fact, you got banned for a legitimate reason so I don't understand how you can sit here and tell us staff are not doing their job.

 

[Redds]

So I don't want this but like this is going to cause an arguement. I know you were banned and I know it got declined, but the staff told you what was happening is fine and not against the rules, where you report said staff, I don't want to reveal them in any way, but in all sense to start to raise an issue complaining about staff, after this said ban is quite bad to say so at least.

see reply above and its only strawmanning to you because you dont have to sit there and watch it happen but sure say im strawmanning just because it contradicts what youve been told and or seen doesnt mean this doesnt happen behind your back when youre not looking you adminstrations and moderators are not infallible or incapable of wrong and that is naive of you to assume as such.

Oh they have done wrong, however the people that have are then demoted, as @Eight put it, if you have an issue with how staff team is speak to madi or xypher and dont make a thread instead trying to start some kind of mob.

 

[Eight]

see reply above and its only strawmanning to you because you dont have to sit there and watch it happen but sure say im strawmanning just because it contradicts what youve been told and or seen doesnt mean this doesnt happen behind your back when your not looking you adminstrations and moderators are not infallible or incapable of wrong and that is naive of you to assume as such.

It is literally strawmanning. You are making assumptions based on the entire administration team based on your interpretation of them and building arguments/points based on that. I am fairly certain you have not encountered even a majority of the staff members on the team yet. If you have, though, then provide a constructive response detailing your experiences with all of them instead of just naming one or two bad experiences where staff took the wrong action. (Do not include scenarios like you being banned for abusing CallAdmin for falsely reporting for spawncamping. That was a justified ban and your main complaint there is the rules, not the administration team enforcing.)

 

[Steam Just a Sylveon]

We have actually accepted many suggestions by normal players/regulars. However, these changes are usually done through our Suggestions subforum, deliberation among staff, etc. We don't consider rule changes for people who dislike their punishment for breaking that rule. Even if someone got banned and we subsequently changed the rule they violated, they would still remain punished because they still broke that rule when it was in effect. If you disagree with our rules, that's completely fine, but you still need to respect them. Again, you are free to make suggestions. Staff and non-staff vote on these suggestions and in the end the vote, along with other factors, leads to a verdict.


I'd honestly fair to say that we are more strict than other communities with behavior that could be considered toxic. (This isn't to take shots at other communities, just an honest observation.) Of course, some players slip through the cracks, and some players are just using annoying game tactics that aren't really "toxic", but otherwise I can't really understand why you think we have a tolerance of obviously toxic players. You can check our SourceBans website (bans.wonderland.tf) to see all the punishments we hand out for toxicity/disrespect.

Yes, players, have left the community, and of course nobody on the staff team wishes for players to leave, but it's only a given for people to not like things (leave WLN and go to other communities they prefer for given reasons). We just can't please everyone, even if we try.

We actually used to have a global voteban system, but it was abused so much that we had to remove it. Votekick/ban commonly results in bandwagoning and mob mentality rather than respecting what is actually in the rules/is the correct action to take. For example, false votebans for players misinterpreted as cheating, when they are just very skilled.


I don't have much to say to the first half of this part considering it's just strawmanning us as being apathetic, so I'm just going to respond to the latter half:

You are free to report players who are insulting others, using slurs, etc. A lot of the time, we punish them (not all of the time of course, since we're only humans and only have so much staff). If you can provide specific examples of staff not punishing players who were observed breaking the rules, then you can send a complaint to @Xypher, and I'm sure it will be listened to. Again, if you really want, you can go through our SourceBans website and look at all the punishments we server for violating our rules against disrespectful behavior.

Rest of your post I don't have much to respond to. I think it is just restating how the staff/management is bad, and I have addressed the actual points above.

If you are willing to accept suggestions can you remove the specificity of the spawn camping rules being limited to specific maps and extend it to all maps? Because im sick and tired of being trapped in my spawn due to spawn killing in 2fort especially if its one of your mods keeping me trapped in there.

If youre going to disallow spawncamping at all extend it to all servers. Because this leads me to believe you can enforce it in these stock maps but you wont. I can say that those of us who enjoy stock maps do not enjoy being stuck in our spawn as well as do not enjoy being banned for reporting someone for it ESPECIALLY IF IT WAS ONE OF YOUR MODS DOING IT. By the way it technically wasnt a false report one of your mods was literally spawncamping me.

 

[Captain Maxxy]

If you are willing to accept suggestions can you remove the specificity of the spawn camping rules being limited to specific maps and extend it to all maps? Because im sick and tired of being trapped in my spawn due to spawn killing in 2fort especially if its one of your mods keeping me trapped in there.

If youre going to disallow spawncamping at all extend it to all servers. Because this leads me to believe you can enforce it in these stock maps but you wont. I can say that those of us who enjoy stock maps do not enjoy being stuck in our spawn as well as do not enjoy being banned for reporting someone for it ESPECIALLY IF IT WAS ONE OF YOUR MODS DOING IT.

ok so I don't see how its worse just because its a mod but ok.
2fort is a standard map as in, its a regular gamemode and we want to have mostly regular rules to give players the closest to regular "casual" as possible, just with the added security of where you can report people.

 

[Redds]

On stock maps, the spawn rooms are large enough and protected to the point where a medic can build an uber safely inside it, and amongst other things, means that there's a simple way to clear out spawn camping. Maps that are custom made and are mentioned in that thread are not made with that in mind, and some maps have specific areas dedicated to achieving spawn camping.

tl;dr: 2fort has a very protected spawn area and a co ordinated push with 4 people can clear out a sentry nest.

Is what elli told you, however it seems you brushed it completely off.

 

[Steam Just a Sylveon]

ok so I don't see how its worse just because its a mod but ok.
2fort is a standard map as in, its a regular gamemode and we want to have mostly regular rules to give players the closest to regular "casual" as possible, just with the added security of where you can report people.

So you still fail to see how this irritates people and wont do anything about it ok. i expected this

 

[Deleted member 8006]

Not sure if I should talk in this, but I will.

Instead of considering the points i raise and take them into consideration they'd rather just point to their rulebook.

For this, you can always make suggestions underneath the Suggestions tab of the forums. I saw your appeal and saw that you didn't like how the enemy was spawn camping on 2Fort. Maybe you can make a suggestion saying that spawn camping, in general, shouldn't be allowed? Everyone gets a part of the vote if it should be added or not so if there is a lot of support, you idea may become official.
Also, the part where you say that they go off the rulebook is sorta obvious. The rules are there for a reason and if you don't like something in it, always make a suggestion.

This sort of behavior leads me to believe noone who runs wonderland.tf servers cares about the concerns, complaints, or points users raise and would rather get instant gratification by banning someone for who knows what amount of time.

Sorry to say this, but this isn't true. If you look at the reports I make, they always look at each one and take the appropriate action. For example, here are some reports that I filed today and the staff took action:

Resolved - Illegal FF (Did Cell Wars Then Arena) And Told Guards To Freekill Us (And Proceeds To Mass Freehit Us)

ID: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheLegendariestBeardEverExisted Name: TLB20 Date: 06/17/20 Server: Wonderland.tf Jailbreak - NY What happened: So we did cell wars, which the warden later on makes us to arena, although we just did cell wars. This would be illegal FF, as FF was just used and he...

wonderland.tf

Resolved - Freekill

ID: https://steamcommunity.com/id/Otherfriendspng Name: Flower Pingu Date: 06/17/20 Server: Wonderland.tf Jailbreak - NY What happened: So the previous warden died, which the new warden said to go to his warden markers. As one RED was going to it, the following player freekilled them. Proof...

wonderland.tf

Resolved - DR Deny (Using Primary When RED Said Melees Only)

ID: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561199018918835 Name: babyshark200 Date: 06/17/20 Server: Wonderland.tf Jailbreak - NY What happened: So the last RED got their LR, chose it, and for their DR, they said for the BLUS to fight him, but with melees only. However, the player reported above...

wonderland.tf

And you may be wondering: If the staff do take action a lot of action, why are there still a lot of rulebreakers and toxic players? Well, the answer to that is that there aren't infinite staff everywhere, which there are only so many staff members (At different time zones and schedules too). It sucks, but that's going to happen. As the other members have stated, you can always file reports, like I do. This will help the staff deal with toxic players and rulebreakers and make Wonderland even better!

I know there is a lot more to this debate, but that is some input I will put.

 

[Steam Just a Sylveon]

On stock maps, the spawn rooms are large enough and protected to the point where a medic can build an uber safely inside it, and amongst other things, means that there's a simple way to clear out spawn camping. Maps that are custom made and are mentioned in that thread are not made with that in mind, and some maps have specific areas dedicated to achieving spawn camping.

tl;dr: 2fort has a very protected spawn area and a co ordinated push with 4 people can clear out a sentry nest.

Is what elli told you, however it seems you brushed it completely off.

That doesnt help when noone is around to build your uber what will i do then and half the time they wont even bother help build a medics uber theres zero team coordinatiion so i get fucked over because i have no other way of dealing with it. You do not whatsoever have a safety net for this situation and it pisses me off.

 

[Aldash]

i think the rules should be tweaked in a way it makes everyone happy and it keeps the toxicity that the mods and admin want out.

If you know a way to make it so that these rules make everyone happy be sure to suggest it!

A lot of players who used to play on wonderland.tf severs in tf2 have left because of the staff and administrations poor performance in resolving issues between players.

Most of the players who I know that left wonderland.tf servers were due to getting bored of TF2. Although there may be some players who left due to their issue being resolved in a way they disagree with I really think you are over exaggerating it in your post.

 

[Eight]

First, I'd just like to clarify something I said, because I don't think I conveyed it properly:

When I said you were strawmanning, I mean you were making up a baseless caricature of the staff team. May have used the term improperly.

If you are willing to accept suggestions can you remove the specificity of the spawn camping rules being limited to specific maps and extend it to all maps? Because im sick and tired of being trapped in my spawn due to spawn killing in 2fort especially if its one of your mods keeping me trapped in there.

If youre going to disallow spawncamping at all extend it to all servers. Because this leads me to believe you can enforce it in these stock maps but you wont. I can say that those of us who enjoy stock maps do not enjoy being stuck in our spawn as well as do not enjoy being banned for reporting someone for it ESPECIALLY IF IT WAS ONE OF YOUR MODS DOING IT.

No, we're not going to make a global rule against spawncamping. Many maps are structured very differently. Some, especially Achivement/Idle maps, are structured to encourage spawncamping and many use it for spawncamping to farm kills or whatever. It would be extremely counterproductive, therefore, to enforce against spawncamping there.

Regarding stock maps specifically, well they are apart of normal TF2 gameplay. Spawncamping is annoying, but so are dominations, well-placed Mini-Sentries, a lot of things. We are not going to disallow something just because it commonly annoys players, else we would be disallowing a lot of integral things to TF2 such as players being F2P or squeakers.

Furthermore, there are many ways that, especially on 2Fort, you can counter spawncamping. If your team is getting spawncamped, it's honestly your guy's fault for allowing them to get that far into your base and spawncamp you in the first place.

That doesnt help when noone is around to build your uber what will i do then and half the time they wont even bother help build a medics uber theres zero team coordinatiion so i get fucked over because i have no other way of dealing with it.

Team Fortress 2 is, as the name implies, and team-based shooter. You have to cooperate with others to succeed. If your team is not coordinating well and the enemy team is, well then there's not much I can tell you. We're not going to make the rules act as a crutch for poor performance.