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Declined Remove the rule that scoping in and revving mini-gun is baiting and remove baiting as a slay able offence

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TheMinecraftPoke

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I think that this part of the baiting rule should be removed "when a heavy revs their mini-gun at reds, or when a sniper scopes on or near a red."

This part of the rule is so stupid. Why would a sniper scoping in be count as baiting. This is the same thing with the heavy. Does that mean the red can go and chase the scoping in sniper or revving heavy? This give the reds a higher chance to rebel because I sniper can't scope in while reds are AFK frozen because it will be cased as baiting and is a slay able offence.

Another thing is, baiting shouldn't be a slay able offence. The red can just ignore you or kill you. Apparently, to some warden on JB it is annoying which I see no sense to. If you want to bait you can. The red can hit you and will not be kos. What is the point of this rule? To reduce the number of blues? I see no point in this rule.
 
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Olaves

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Completely agree mate. I don't see why scoping in should be baiting at all. It's unfair for a sniper who is positioned further back to not be allowed to zoom in to get a better look. It is even more unfair that the whole process to kill someone as a sniper takes double as long since you have to scope in, aim and then shoot, unlike other the classes. Otherwise the warden can just slay you for "baiting". Revving the mini-gun can be annoying which is why it is classes as baiting but again, it should not be a slayable offence. It just means that the heavy can kill rebellers quicker and just as efficiently as the other classes (excluding sniper).

Baiting as a whole should not be a slayable offence. Baiting does not ruin the round or a game-mode. A blue is baiting at his own risk and the reds are able to kill that blue without punishment. Because of this, I do not think that the warden or a staff member should find it necessary to slay that blue as he is at risk of dying from the reds anyway. And if he survives baiting, why slay them? He or she isn't ruining the round...
 

thinhtranqq1

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Completely agree mate. I don't see why scoping in should be baiting at all. It's unfair for a sniper who is positioned further back to not be allowed to zoom in to get a better look. It is even more unfair that the whole process to kill someone as a sniper takes double as long since you have to scope in, aim and then shoot, unlike other the classes. Otherwise the warden can just slay you for "baiting". Revving the mini-gun can be annoying which is why it is classes as baiting but again, it should not be a slayable offence. It just means that the heavy can kill rebellers quicker and just as efficiently as the other classes (excluding sniper).

Baiting as a whole should not be a slayable offence. Baiting does not ruin the round or a game-mode. A blue is baiting at his own risk and the reds are able to kill that blue without punishment. Because of this, I do not think that the warden or a staff member should find it necessary to slay that blue as he is at risk of dying from the reds anyway. And if he survives baiting, why slay them? He or she isn't ruining the round...

baiting should be not slay able
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Stao

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I think that this part of the baiting rule should be removed "when a heavy revs their mini-gun at reds, or when a sniper scopes on or near a red."

This part of the rule is so stupid. Why would a sniper scoping in be count as baiting. This is the same thing with the heavy. Does that mean the red can go and chase the scoping in sniper or revving heavy? This give the reds a higher chance to rebel because I sniper can't scope in while reds are AFK frozen because it will be cased as baiting and is a slay able offence.

Another thing is, baiting shouldn't be a slay able offence. The red can just ignore you or kill you. Apparently, to some warden on JB it is annoying which I see no sense to. If you want to bait you can. The red can hit you and will not be kos. What is the point of this rule? To reduce the number of blues? I see no point in this rule.

Part of the reason Heavy's revving and Sniper Scopingis considered baiting is to help prevent mass freekill (accidentally or otherwise.) It's also there as sort of a balance to the game, much like Demo's sticky's. Heavy's revving is also annoying and Sniper's Scoping creates a tunnel vision Sniper who isn't very helpful in the grand scheme of things. They are punished like other forms of baiting to keep a consistency between punishments. If perhaps there was enough outcry as to Sniper and Heavy being such underpowered classes with these restrictions, then I could see the rule changing. However, currently that's why the rule exists. It's not because it's necessarily baiting, but more as a balance.
 

TheMinecraftPoke

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Part of the reason Heavy's revving and Sniper Scopingis considered baiting is to help prevent mass freekill (accidentally or otherwise.) It's also there as sort of a balance to the game, much like Demo's sticky's. Heavy's revving is also annoying and Sniper's Scoping creates a tunnel vision Sniper who isn't very helpful in the grand scheme of things. They are punished like other forms of baiting to keep a consistency between punishments. If perhaps there was enough outcry as to Sniper and Heavy being such underpowered classes with these restrictions, then I could see the rule changing. However, currently that's why the rule exists. It's not because it's necessarily baiting, but more as a balance.

Why it is for balance? If someone is freekilled, the warden can slay them. So, I see no point in this rule protecting the reds because warden can slay the blue who freekilled. Demo's sticky are banned because they can cause mass-freekill unlike the heavy's mini-gun and sniper's rifle. About the tunnel vision, when I go sniper I observe the area the reds are in which is helpful for the warden and encourages the reds not to rebel. The heavy revving the mini-gun can be annoying but you could say the same thing with AFK taunt that make noise and voice commands.
 
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Olaves

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It's also there as sort of a balance to the game

Eh. For the sniper, it's ridiculously unfair that they have to take double as long to kill someone compared to all other classes since they have to scope in, aim all over again and then shoot rather than a scout who just has to press mouse1... Even harder for inexperienced snipers. This discourages guards from going sniper, which is a necessary class for jailbreak in, as you said, the grand scheme of things.
 
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Neliel

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Eh. For the sniper, it's ridiculously unfair that they have to take double as long to kill someone compared to all other classes since they have to scope in, aim all over again and then shoot rather than a scout who just has to press mouse1... Even harder for inexperienced snipers. This discourages guards from going sniper, which is a necessary class for jailbreak in, as you said, the grand scheme of things.
Ok. How many times have you played sniper? It's the most overpowered class in the game. I don't know how many of you know this but, as a heavy you do much more damage when your minigun is spun up then normal. What that means is that when you shoot at 1 red and there are others around, you're most likely to kill more than just 1, since most players don't have the game sense as to when to stop shooting.

Reds are not allowed to chase baiters meaning they also can't go to a baiting sniper/heavy. This is one of the reasons as to why baiting is a slayable offence.
 

TheMinecraftPoke

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Ok. How many times have you played sniper? It's the most overpowered class in the game. I don't know how many of you know this but, as a heavy you do much more damage when your minigun is spun up then normal. What that means is that when you shoot at 1 red and there are others around, you're most likely to kill more than just 1, since most players don't have the game sense as to when to stop shooting.

Reds are not allowed to chase baiters meaning they also can't go to a baiting sniper/heavy. This is one of the reasons as to why baiting is a slayable offence.

"As a heavy you do much more damage when your minigun is spun up" Does that relate to baiting at all? So we are nerf classes because they can do more damage. What about sniper? Just because he is one of the most overpowered classes in the game, doesn't mean we have to nerf him for no reason. We could say that the spy is overpowered as well because he can one hit kill. We could say medics rebelling on red with Uber are overpowered so why don't we nerf them?

Also, that is not a real reason why baiting is a slayable offence. The blue is not allowed to kill the red so what is the point of punishing a blue for baiting. So what if the reds cannot chase baiter, baiter are just baiting and not affecting the flow of the game. You can just ignore baiting. Please tell me another reason why baiting is slayable. So, can the warden be slayed for baiting because warden can bait.
 
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Olaves

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Baiting
Reds are not allowed to chase baiters meaning they also can't go to a baiting sniper/heavy. This is one of the reasons as to why baiting is a slayable offence.

Reds aren't allowed to chase baiters so we'll let the warden slay them instead. wtf

The reason reds aren't allowed to chase baiters is because the definition of baiting is being within a red's melee range. By chasing a baiter, you are not within their melee range, hence you are KOS for moving to hit a guard. Reds are not allowed to chase a sniper or a heavy that is "baiting" at the other end of the main cell area for this reason. This doesn't mean that the warden can slay them just because the reds cannot run up to that baiter and hit him. Technically, he's not even baiting for being in their melee range.

as a heavy you do much more damage when your minigun is spun up then normal. What that means is that when you shoot at 1 red and there are others around, you're most likely to kill more than just 1

This doesn't have anything to do with baiting. That is called freehitting/freekilling and is a slayable offence. If a heavy freehits a red, the warden is allowed to slay that blue. If the heavy is stupid enough to use his minigun rather than his shotgun to kill one singular person within a group, it is his own fault and deserves to be slain. But this does not mean that him spinning his minigun should be a slayable offence since he's not hurting anyone. The worst he's doing is intimidating the reds but he's a guard and I see no problem with that.
 
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Stao

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Why it is for balance? If someone is freekilled, the warden can slay them. So, I see no point in this rule protecting the reds because warden can slay the blue who freekilled. Demo's sticky are banned because they can cause mass-freekill unlike the heavy's mini-gun and sniper's rifle. About the tunnel vision, when I go sniper I observe the area the reds are in which is helpful for the warden and encourages the reds not to rebel. The heavy revving the mini-gun can be annoying but you could say the same thing with AFK taunt that make noise and voice commands.
It's not for balance because of the potential for mass freekill; rather, it's to balance out Heavy's and Sniper's potential damage output vs melee only REDs. The tunnel vision is just an added bonus to the rule, not the main component. And yes taunts and voice commands are annoying, but the warden can deal with that.
Eh. For the sniper, it's ridiculously unfair that they have to take double as long to kill someone compared to all other classes since they have to scope in, aim all over again and then shoot rather than a scout who just has to press mouse1... Even harder for inexperienced snipers. This discourages guards from going sniper, which is a necessary class for jailbreak in, as you said, the grand scheme of things.
Guards should be encouraged to play multiple different classes to fill niches in the guard team. Not only is Sniper probably the best class overall for the Guard team now, letting them scope in all the time will just create a wall of Snipers. Not very fun IMO.
"As a heavy you do much more damage when your minigun is spun up" Does that relate to baiting at all? So we are nerf classes because they can do more damage. What about sniper? Just because he is one of the most overpowered classes in the game, doesn't mean we have to nerf him for no reason. We could say that the spy is overpowered as well because he can one hit kill. We could say medics rebelling on red with Uber are overpowered so why don't we nerf them?

Also, that is not a real reason why baiting is a slayable offence. The blue is not allowed to kill the red so what is the point of punishing a blue for baiting. So what if the reds cannot chase baiter, baiter are just baiting and not affecting the flow of the game. You can just ignore baiting. Please tell me another reason why baiting is slayable. So, can the warden be slayed for baiting because warden can bait.
Let me ask you this: as a Warden, is it not frustrating and counterproductive to see BLUs put themselves in harm's way other than being dumb? We slay BLUs for baiting because it is not helpful to the warden. Continuous baiting will result in a teamban, thereby creating a spot on BLU for a more helpful guard. Again, (and perhaps its confusing and should be better clarified) think of Heavy's revving and Sniper's scoping as a balance for Jailbreak, not as actual baiting. Heavys and Snipers with the ability to react that fast have been determined to be a little unbalanced and unfair for REDs. Not to mention the other benefits. Like I said, if there was enough support to remove those restrictions, (I suggest starting with Sniper, I think it's a better argument) then I could see it changing.
 

Stao

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This is a rule change/update I've suggested to the staff that would replace rules 6 & 7 under Guards Rules and taken the Sniper and Heavy parts from the baiting section to add to this new rule. This would hopefully end the confusion behind this subject and make things more clear. Here's how it would probably look:

6. The following are some class specific restrictions for BLUs:
A. Demos may not sticky trap.(You may sticky jump and use in response of being attacked or rebelling.)
B. Heavys may not keep constantly spinning their miniguns. (Without intent to kill.)
C. Sniper's may not constantly scope in. (Without,again, intent to kill.)
D. Spys may not cloak or disguise.
 

Olaves

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Anyone else intentionally bait and then back off to see if the red chases you so you can kill them ?

How many times have you played sniper? It's the most overpowered class in the game.

Not really for jailbreak. Scout is by far the best class for JB if you know how to play him properly. Catch other scouts/classes running away, don't have to worry about being hoarded by multiple reds and a, frankly, overpowered scatter gun which destroys if your aim is on point. It's impossible to "nerf" scout on blue but obviously scout on red has had his double jump removed until he rebels, which just shows how OP he is. Sniper, on the other hand, is slow, at risk of being targetting first since people assume he's the best and very easy to hoarde since a sniper can only shoot at one person at a time. Not the most useful class for Jailbreak. This is why I don't understand the reason the sniper has been "nerfed" even more by not being allowed to consistently scope in.

Let me ask you this: as a Warden, is it not frustrating and counterproductive to see BLUs put themselves in harm's way other than being dumb? We slay BLUs for baiting because it is not helpful to the warden. Continuous baiting will result in a teamban, thereby creating a spot on BLU for a more helpful guard.

It's a game. If they are being stupid, it's their own fault and completely allowed to die from a red because of it. I don't think anyone deserve a slay and definitely not a teamban for being stupid/having fun where they are not actually free-killing anyone or ruining the game one bit.
 
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SuperGuard

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They're set as baiting mainly as a precaution.

If a Sniper's aiming at a RED, the laser dot can make them panic but the problem is quite simply if the Sniper clicks (purposely or accidently) then it'll likely end up as a freekill. It's worse with the Classic since the user may accidently release the mouse button and even worse with the Huntsman because of arrow hitreg and no laser sight to know where they're aiming.

Heavy is a similar story but more of a risk of freehitting rather than freekilling. If the Heavy is near the reds while spooling the mini gun it can very easily cause concern for the reds, gives everyone less time to react if they start firing and the noise makes it harder for people to listen to the order unless it's the Tomislav.
 

Eight

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For: 3 (TheMinecraftPoke, Olaves, and thinhtranqq1).

Against: 5 (Brando Oats, DAVEY, Neliel, SuperGuard, and me [for the same reasoning as stated above]).

Any other opinions people want to give? Otherwise I'll close the thread.
 
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