Accepted Water Bottles's Warden Un-Ban

[Water Bottles]

1.) Include your ban profile link:

Steam Community :: jun_e

My backpack My Trade Link My Steam Profile Picture Is Done By RIPY

steamcommunity.com

(If you have your Steam account linked on your forum account, this step is not a requirement.)

2.) Explain what happened / why you have been banned:

I was playing Simon Says as a Warden and I was banned by an admin because I outsmarted the prisoners and maybe an admin(?)

First, I said Simon Says it is now a big group day (which means that the smallest group will die) and made them go to diner. However, before diner, I toggled collusion so it would be more difficult for them to stay as a group (which nobody complained). After they reached diner, one of the red play said "go to the corner so we stay as a group", it was a smart idea. Later on, I told them to come out and say their drinks by (some time limit I gave that I don't remember) and once the time has been reached, I told 3 players to come out by (given time) or everyone was going to die. The 3 players didn't come out because I never said Simon Says, so I said "big group day is now over and Simon Say 3 player may come out," and in a surprise, lots of players came out of the group. However, since I never said Simon Says big group day is now over, I killed all the players who came out. All the blu team said nice or good kill because they knew that lots of red got bamboozled. I explain why I killed the ones who were out of the group but I got slain as a warden and got banned from being a guard/warden.

3.) Tell us why we should unban you:

Because I believe I did nothing wrong but outsmarting players. Hopefully, I didn't miss out on reading the rules.

 

[Guac]

I teambanned you because you never explained what "group day" was, and because doing an order like "3 players come out or everyone dies" is against the rules. You freekilled anyone that left the group, despite the fact that "group day" is not a valid day.

 

[Stao]

@Water Bottles anything to say to this? ^ will decline in 24 hours if no response.

 

[Water Bottles]

I did explain what group day was, I did it, in fact, every time I was warden. (Ask the people in the server if I explained big group day or not)

For the "3 players come out or everyone dies," it is not applied because I never said Simon says. Meaning its a fake, not valid.

I didn't free kill anyone who left the group, I never said Simon says big group day was now over. I only said that "big group day is now over and Simon Say 3 player may come out." This means that only "Simon Says 3 players may come out" was the only valid order, I never disabled big group day. Now, whoever was out was KOS because I never disabled the big group day; rather you were volunteered, 3 players, they weren't in the biggest group.

 

[Water Bottles]

I did response, didn't get any response from my response

 

[Guac]

I never observed you defining "group day" myself, and asking the other people in the server is not a definitive way to see if you did. In my opinion, it does not matter if it was a fake order or not, as it may give the impression to some people that you are doing an order like that. Then, when you asked people to play the minigame you had them play (diner, in this case) you killed them. Even though you had said "Simon says three people come out, group day is over", you killed anyone who did so. Additionally, you killed anyone still in the group, nearly ending the round, except I had teambanned you before this could happen.

 

[Water Bottles]

I define everything I do. Otherwise, people spam !r on chat or would ask what the "group day" is. Even my guards forget the order I gave sometimes and everyone/or I explained to the guard that there is an order given.

"Simon says three people come out, group day is over", you killed anyone who did so. Additionally, you killed anyone still in the group, nearly ending the round, except I had teambanned you before this could happen. - MisterGuac

Uhhh yeah, not true.
I stopped killing when once I killed everyone who wasn't in a group and everyone in the blu team was saying nice because once again, they knew that the reds got bamboozled. And also, I would say this again. "big group day is now over and Simon Say 3 player may come out." This means that only "Simon Says 3 players may come out" was the only valid order, I never disabled big group day.

If you are still confused, take it like this.
Someone asked you to go to the mall and buy a drink, there are two different orders given. The 1st order was "go to the mall" and the 2nd order was "[to] buy a drink." THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT ORDER! Now, replace that 2nd order with Simon Says (but not the 1st one). This would mean that "go to the mall" part wouldn't be a valid order because I never said Simon Says. Only the 2nd order would be valid, the "buy a drink" part. This means that if you were to go to the mall to buy a drink, you would be KOS because I never Simon Says to go to the mall.

If you were to make two the DIFFERENT order valid, I would have needed to say this: "Simon Says go to the mall and buy a drink."
Look how the "Simon Says" part is on the start, meaning everything I said after that is all valid. However, if I were to say "go to the mall and Simon Says buy a drink," everything before I said Simon Says would not be valid.

 

[Eight]

Alright, there is a lot to unpack here.

@Water Bottles I will make this concession to you. Contrary to what MisterGuac said above, I will consider the "3 players to come out by (given time) or everyone was going to die" order valid as it's not actually an order. Similar to saying "Last reaction taunt" during FR-LR when it's No Taunt Day, normally this would be an illegal order as you can't force taunts, but since this isn't really an order (trick order is sort of a misnomer) and the correct way to respond is to not taunt at all, it isn't really illegal.

However, there's still what MisterGuac said about you not defining Group Day and killing REDs who were in the group, both of which would be rule-breaking. Your claims are that you both defined it and did not kill REDs still in the group. So, now we've reached an impasse of sorts, where it is a staff's word against yours and there's nothing really supporting one side or the other.

So here's the deal: As I can't reasonably take action against alleged staff abuse without evidence, I can' take any action here if there's nothing you can provide to further substantiate your claims. I will review chat-logs when I can, but if you have anything like a recording or a demo to support you here, that would help your case a lot. Otherwise, I'm forced to just decline this. I don't want to accuse you of lying per se, I'm just saying your claims that Guac wrongfully banned you are tenuous at the moment.

 

[Water Bottles]

Ok, I liked what you said at the end and I agree with it. However, I'm going to still defend my self without any evidence but with logical sense.

In this Jailbreak server (as far as I know of), people type !r or ask what the day is for these reasons:
- Not Actually knowing the day
- Just wanting to annoy the Warden
- Doing it because everyone is doing it
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------As I remember, there wasn't any of that after I explained the day (Also during the previous days when I was warden multiple times). Also, MisterGuac, why didn't you ask for !r, and how come everyone went into a big pile of group? It seems like I explained the day, but you happened to miss it. Not all Admins/Mods are perfect at hearing. If this isn't good enough of a reason, I don't know what to say anymore. However, I would say this,

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens.
If you also don't have any evidence (unless you find my voice in the logs, please do) the banned should be dropped.

 

[Eight]

Also, MisterGuac, why didn't you ask for !r, and how come everyone went into a big pile of group? It seems like I explained the day, but you happened to miss it.

For your first question: Only you are responsible for following the rules. Staff are here to correct players in-game and punish them if they're broken, but if you did not define Group Day, then that is your fault alone. Of course, you claim otherwise, but even if you claimed the same, MisterGuac (supposedly) not using !r is not an excuse. Furthermore, staff can be quiet in-game for various reasons, such as to be undercover.

For the second, it's very possible that A. You had defined this day in a previous round, B. People were following what others were doing, as is usual in Jailbreak, and/or C. People guessed "Group Day" meant staying in a group. This can indicate too that you had defined Group Day, but it doesn't prove it, especially against a staff member not hearing you say it. Furthermore, assuming that "A" is the case (and I haven't explicitly seen you claim that you defined this day in the round itself, just that you did), it is still your responsibility to define the days you are using every time, as orders do not carry over rounds.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens.
If you also don't have any evidence (unless you find my voice in the logs, please do) the banned should be dropped.

As staff hold the authority to take action based on what they observe, a staff's word is evidence on it's own. Of course, if there was contradictory evidence to an action a staff member did, then it'd be a different story. However, in this situation, there isn't.

So in conclusion:

I will leave the teamban on. I'm not even that concerned about the situation of you defining Group Day, more-so about the mass freekilling. We take freekills, especially multiple, very seriously, and so you must serve out a teamban for this.

However, after talking to MisterGuac, I have come to learn that the amount of REDs you freekilled was only around 2-3. So, with that, and the apparent confusion surrounding this, I will lower your teamban to five hours. Of course, if anything like this happens again, we (staff) will not be as generous, and so I greatly advise you go over the Jailbreak rules and make sure you are always clear in-game.

Appeal accepted.

P.S. Some of your remarks in this appeal seemed quite condescending, such as the "I outsmarted the prisoners and maybe an admin(?)" and "Not all Admins/Mods are perfect at hearing." I highly recommend that you think about being tactful in situations such as this. Those remarks don't portray you well.